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User talk:Lirielle/Itempage
hey, take a look at Flax String page and check out the division of craftable items - i think this would be useful for items/resources that have many crafts.--ilmarine 14:23, 12 January 2007 (UTC) I implemented your ideas here and based Template:Skelweapon but do some twists: remove some headings, reorder from low uses/obtains to high uses/obtains. Drop your comments. Also wondering if it should be better Obtain or Obtaining i cant discuss that much as English is not my native language--Cizagna (Talk) 02:49, 13 January 2007 (UTC) :For headings, see below. For order, I think it's better to have more common obtains/uses listed first. About Obtaining, -ing forms are more common in English headings. --Lirielle 11:50, 13 January 2007 (UTC) other pages user:Lirielle/Itempagecomplex user:Lirielle/Itempagesmall Suggestion for a skeleton OK. You jumped in even before I could comment what I was making. ;) Well I guess you saw where I was going to. Here are the main points (all open to discussion of course) * This skeleton is valid for items/resources. Adjustments need be made for weapons (several subtitles do not apply). Also, Itembox must be adjusted to include the Description. * Use of a hierarchy of titles for complex pages - so we get both a structured look and a neat table of contents - See User:Lirielle/Itempagecomplex * The idea about (sub)titles is that: :* lvl 1 titles (General, Obtaining, and Uses) should be always used, so we have a consistent look for all item/resource pages :* lvl 2 titles should be used only if there is more than 1 ::In other words, if the item can only be obtained by crafting, the "Obtaining" title is directly followed by the "Crafted by..." line. See User:Lirielle/Itempagesmall and Minotot Hoof for examples :* lvl 3 titles can be used if required, like for the craft categories in User:Lirielle/Itempagecomplex * The General section and the standard " is a }" could be generated from the Itembox template. --Lirielle 11:50, 13 January 2007 (UTC) ::Some quick and I think important notes: :::*Let's drop the heading General - no need to start the article with a title. :::*Maybe we could put the subheadings as (I just looked at Template:Skelweapon and realized that Cizagna already has this, but I'll let it remain): ::::*'Dropped by:' :::::*Gobball ::::*'Crafted by profession (lvl xx) from:' :::::*item :::::*item :::I just don't like the overuse of titles and the way they take up so much space. Also, lists (monsters, used in the crafting of) should always be alphabetized and if crafting is very long, it should further be divided into categories (Flax String). For resources the first obtain is drop, for items the first obtain is craft (Cizagna's Template:Skelweapon has exchange first for a weapon!). Also, we should start implementing rates and PP locks for drops (there was a resource which had a nice table, but I have forgotten what it was) - right now I have sometimes used (10-30% | PP >156). Ah, and aside from the first paragraph the item name should never be bold (as it is right now in the Evil Dandelion Tongue exchanges part).--ilmarine 15:57, 13 January 2007 (UTC) ::Im still sorting my ideas here but about the PP lock table its a no as some items can be drop from more than one monster so pp locks should be manage on the corresponding monster page that drops the item.--Cizagna (Talk) 17:38, 13 January 2007 (UTC) :::On the one hand - yes, PP should be on the monster page and you sould check from there (also, this means less work for us). On the other hand - look at Biblop Blubber for example, Blops drop 100%, Biblops at 50% - an important thing to know when you go hunting for it. Besides for the PP locks I meant that every creature under Dropped by: should have its own percentage and lock (not one as a whole).--ilmarine 17:50, 13 January 2007 (UTC) ::All the accurate % rates are from community site but not all the items are listed on the community site also not all the drops of the monsters are inform. Aside from that to really know what its the accurate % number it should be display some where in the game files or be manage at the Amakna server (unavailable for us) unless a GM with that kind of access feels the necessity of telling us all that information, we are managing rough % estimates to do accurate numbers some one would had to record what the monster drop for around 1000 at least to give a decent number, in single fights (player vs monster) and not against mobs of monsters as this will give extra variables. And with all that 1k battles seems a lot of time investment also finding the proper mobs that will only have 1 of the designated monster to do the proper research. And about that item is drop only by hunters, in the gathering of hunter its already noted with their proper percents (even thought its been there a little redundant), also in the monsters will be the percent information, now if lets say you dont know the monster, you will have to see each individual monster as you will need to evaluate whats the best thing for you as maybe some one will be able against certain monster with lower % but easy to kill or a higher drop monster but way harder or impossible to the person.The idea is to keep it simple and easy maybe hard to start but easy to maintain, like the set pages, item pages has certain stats and set pages have other stats, and guides that copy the stats from set or item pages will be updated in a far later on from the first change. ::Now lets see Headings: ::#General it eats visual space and it can be perfectly manage in the lead section, now why it should not be generated by the template its simple extra info like history information will have to work out separate instead of putting ::: :::it will have to be a separate line that says ::: :::so instead of just reducing to 1 line we will finish to 2 lines and repeating the name 2 times. and the only porpuse will be to remark what a lead section is about and thats the general info. ::: With the Obtaining and Uses dont have a problem and i agree that obtaining first and uses next ::# Subheadings ::: instead of making subheadings i change them to another format of wiki ; title : contence as wiki way to work headings lvl 2 is to draw a line and that line makes confusing wich is the heading of what perfectly clear at the TOC but not when you are down looking for something. Exchange and Shop i decide to merge them as you will exchange certain quantity of kamas for a certain item unless its separated for the NPC options. Now Craft(obtaining) will never surpass 8 there i just put the ones that where lower and preferable like for example exchange(obtain) will be on top of drop(obtain) because normaly you will wonder if you can get the item with possible useless items you have at the bank or easy to get like scrolls, rather to try to defeat wa wabbit or kanigorus with ppl aiding in the pp lock and finish not obtaining. Craft(obtain) if you abstract the concept its an exchange, but lets not go to complicate. Now with uses same as above pet food (in the case of weapon i will change to "other uses") and exchange will consume a couple of lines and you can have it all gather with the "obtain" info but then comes craft(uses) and that with some commonly use items will eat a lot of space and scrolling down just to check if that food is eated by something or whats the other use like Aluminite (but thats not the case with weapons as there is almost none use of weapons for crafting and not going in list of more than 4 to 5). ::--Cizagna (Talk) 21:36, 13 January 2007 (UTC) ::A few quick answers before I try to summarize: ::* "General" heading: If not present, the ToC will be displayed within the article :((( ::* "Headings take space" and "lvl2 headings line is confusing" - Agreed. This can be solved by stepping down the titles, starting from lvl2 instead. This is implemented in the current version. ::* "lists should be alphabetized" - agreed, but the skeleton can't help, it's the submitter's task I'm afraid. ::* "rates and PP locks" - when they're in I've kept them so far, but they are not a priority and the user can easily check in the invididual monster pages. I understand you point about quick selecting a monster with the higher drop, but then we could add the monster lvl to allow selecting a monster that the player is able to fight etc. :p. On the whole, I think it justs adds to the maintenance work without being really useful ::* bullets for Uses subtitles. I used them on some pages, but they are not practical because the editor can easily get confused and they are not appropriate in complex pages (if you use Categories as sublevels in the Crafts section) ::* 1st line "should not be generated by the template" - agreed. Just after I had written this page, I realized it could not be reasonably imlemented, for such reasons as you describe. ::* "Exchange and Shop": I prefer to keep them separate as they refer to different options in game (Buy/Sell - Exchange) ::* I'm sorry but, Cizagna, your last lines (starting from "Now with uses") are a bit confusing. Let me know if any of your concerns are not taken care of in the other paragraphs. ::* "consume a couple of lines". Subtitles should be used only on complex pages. In these complex pages, they will help structuring the text. ::* same remark for merging subtitles :: As a general remark let's not forget that complex pages will be few, so let's not spend hours on that ;). The principle is to have a structured page that the user can copy in order to use standard headings/structure/recurring expressions while scrapping what is not applicable to the page he's creating. :: --Lirielle 22:47, 13 January 2007 (UTC) ::Edit About "scrolling down just to check if that food" - that's what subtitles and ToC are made for. ;) --Lirielle 22:52, 13 January 2007 (UTC) :::Right now my only disagreement seems to be about the General heading - in many books the foreword is before the TOC. Besides, if you look at the current page, placing the first sentence (which usually is either "Items is a resource" or only a bit longer) looks really good. It gatches the eye very well and you can find the main information quickly. Ah, and if there are no other uses we don't have to add the subsection with only the sentence "None know."--ilmarine 06:29, 14 January 2007 (UTC) Item skeleton v2 Implemented: * "General" title removed (though I don't like the Toc being moved down) * Titles stepped down 1 level. * Subtitles reordered Not implemented: * Remove bold * Bulleted subtitles * Merging subtitles Awaiting your comments. --Lirielle 22:57, 13 January 2007 (UTC) * Added pet food boost * Added links * Changed "Crafting" under Uses to "Crafts" (for similarty with "Echanges") * Delete "None known." (the category tag suffices) --Lirielle 10:51, 14 January 2007 (UTC)